Ministerial Advisory Forum on Ageing meeting minutes: 12 March 2024

Dr Charles Musselwhite, Aberystwyth University
Barry Stephens, Active Wales
Vicki Lloyd, Age Cymru, chair
Chris Jones, Care & Repair
Steve Milsom, Cymru Older People's Alliance (COPA)
Andrew Hinchliffe, Cymru Older People's Alliance (COPA)
Sarah Rossington-Harris, Local Authority Age Friendly Network, Bridgend Council
Councillor Norma Mackie, Local Authority Age Friendly Network, Cardiff Council
Mirain Llwyd Roberts, Local Authority Age Friendly Network, Gwynedd Council
Councillor Louise Minett-Vokes, Local Authority Age Friendly Network, Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council
Councillor Hayley Gwilliam, Local Authority Age Friendly Network, Swansea Council
Dereck Roberts, National Pensioners Convention
David McKinney, Office of the Older People's Commissioner
Lyn Cadwallader, One Voice Wales (Town and Community councils)
Tania Harrington, Stonewall Cymru
Peter Walters, Wales Seniors Forum
Sarah Capstick, Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA)
Dawn Jeffery, Welsh Women's Aid
Lisa Thomas, Welsh Government
Rachel Lewis, Welsh Government
Emma Harney, Welsh Government
Richard Thomas, Welsh Government

Apologies

Jill Salter, Business in the Community
Professor John Williams, Academia, Aberystwyth University
Rhiannon Ivens, Welsh Government
Gethin Edwards, Welsh Government

The chair welcomed everyone to the meeting and noted apologies from Jill Salter, Business in the Community, Professor John Williams, academia and chair of Age Cymru and Rhiannon Ivens, Welsh Government.

The chair referred everyone to the code of conduct which was re-circulated with the agenda and asked everyone to take note that not every member of MAFA would agree on everything. Members should be able to disagree respectfully.

The deputy minister for social services addressed the group and the following points were noted:

• Welsh Government is, and always has been, committed to tackling ageism. The DM acknowledged the huge contribution that older people make to society and agreed that it is important to raise the profile of ageism and have a national debate
• it is important for governments to engage at grass roots level and see the issues that older people are facing on the ground.
• the increasing use of digital applications in car parks was discussed. When raising this as a problem for some older people, some individuals have been told “well older people need to catch up.”  It is a constant “negative drip” and this is not acceptable
• Cardiff Council are trying to support all older people to be more healthy, active and integrated. Services should be offered in the way that suits the individual
• wdiscrimination was also discussed. Sometimes employers are too focussed on ensuring that the workplace does not discriminate against older people, however in many cases you cannot get older applicants to apply; employers should look at this issue from the eyes of the older person as well as the workplace
• communication is key when trying to combat ageism. The Age Friendly Leads at Swansea County Council are undertaking some myth busting events and trying to build relationships between older residents and younger people. Visibility is key
• ageism is detrimental to a person’s health and wellbeing. This is the one issue that has stood out from Heléna Herklots’ time as Commissioner
• a national campaign which looks at all levels of ageism; be that personal, in the community and at structural or strategic levels, is needed. It is not easy to challenge ageism as it is cultural and not tangible
• Age discrimination extends to gaps in life expectancy, health, income, work etc. It was agreed that a working group is needed to plan for a campaign, or similar, in 2025. Financial constraints within Welsh Government and organisations were recognised as a potential barrier to allow this work to progress

Action

• Welsh Government officials to convene a working group to look at ageism in more detail

Lyn Cadwallader from One Voice Wales addressed the MAFA group and the following points were noted:

• town and community councils can complement the age friendly work and are important to involving communities more actively
• councils can have a role as community navigators and many are providing low level community support initiatives
• community and town councils get very much involved in the age friendly agenda, for example outdoor spaces, buildings, community support and employment
• examples of warm hubs and welfare advice services were given
• there is a thirst to better align with the age friendly agenda
• Lyn Cadwallader proposed targeting larger councils initially to undertake a pathfinder exercise which can then be rolled out to create a larger network
• 300 councils meet monthly via a webinar and a similar approach could be taken with the age friendly work
• resources are important if One Voice Wales is to become more involved in this agenda and a second person in One Voice Wales will be needed to drive this forward

The following points were noted by the group:

• it was agreed by MAFA members that involvement and engagement with town and community councils is important
• town and community councils know their local people far better sometimes than the local authority and better understand their demographic
• it is about making links to make sure that all communities are inclusive across Wales
• town and community councils have the overall community picture and need to be involved in designing local solutions

It was agreed that Welsh Government would take all this information and create a paper to present to the minister.

Actions

• Welsh Government to meet with Lyn Cadwallader and Vicki Lloyd to draft a paper with a proposal to involve town and community councils better
• ensure this issue is raised with the ageism working group so that town and community councils can help to promote messaging
• officials to work with Vicki Lloyd and Lyn Cadwallader to draft proposal to share with the deputy minister

Welsh Government officials Emma Harney and Lisa Thomas led this agenda item. Emma Harney introduced the paper by saying that the issues of digital exclusion amongst older people are already well documented and therefore this discussion will be for MAFA members to consider how to address some of the issues rather than re-list them. When thinking about digital exclusion, we could start by thinking about 2 distinct groups: older people who do not have the basic digital skills or access to the internet, and older people who are able to make an informed choice about whether they engage in the digital world or not.

Question: how do we identify and reach those older people who do or do not want to engage digitally and ensure that both groups are able to live the lives that they want?

Lisa Thomas added that our aim is to support people to make an informed choice, ensuring that those who decide to engage digitally have the skills they need.

The following points were noted:

• there is an assumption that online apps and websites are better, however there are many that are poorly designed and that in itself creates a barrier for older people using digital technologies
• it was confirmed that the Centre for Digital Public Services has the remit to address these issues and that user friendly design and accessibility is a basic need for everyone. However, it was noted that systems are often designed without the user, in mind. Pace of change is also a barrier. It is also important to identify individuals who do not have a voice when designing digital services. It was agreed that a partnership approach across all agencies and sectors is key
• during the current cost of living crisis, many older people cannot afford to go online and are stopping their expensive broadband and mobile phone contracts
• industries, such as banking, closing high street stores and moving to an online platform is making it harder for older people who do not have access to digital means to a basic right such as getting hold of their money
• Local Authorities are increasingly using artificial intelligence (AI), public transport such as trains are impossible to use by some individuals as they only have an electronic option to purchase tickets, and a local housing trust has removed the telephone numbers off vans which is contributing to social isolation. Local Tesco’s are putting “no cash” coffee machines into their stores. What is being done to ensure that people can access information and buy things via non-digital means?
• there needs to be some awareness raising, perhaps through a national campaign, to highlight the benefits of going online. We need to be asking “what is the hook that gets people online.”
• family members need to be involved to show older relatives how to access things online. This can then be built on through online working groups; this would be a great local approach using a trusted face to help people learn what they need to do. 

Emma Harney referred to the takeaway task that was included at the end of the paper to accompany this discussion, adding that a dedicated meeting would be arranged in about 6 weeks for any members who wish to catch up.

Lisa Thomas gave an introduction to the Minimum Digital Living Standard (MDLS), adding that Welsh Government are now looking at how to adapt the current standard for households with children to other households, such as older people.

Actions:

• MAFA members to consider the questions under the MDLS section of the meeting paper
• Welsh Government officials to arrange a meeting for 6 weeks to discuss this item further

Rachel Lewis highlighted some of the points that were discussed at the meeting on 27 February 2024 which discussed the Strategy for an Ageing Society 6-month progress report:

• it was agreed that the previous structure of a main report, narrative and statistical analysis was the right way forward
• MAFA should be more involved in developing the report
• Gethin Edwards is working with our data team here at Welsh Government to produce a set of indicators for the statistical report which will be discussed with a working group

Action: 

• officials to re-circulate note of this meeting along with the note of today's meeting

Under any other business, Rachel Lewis went through the list of actions and it was agreed that all were either ongoing or complete.

Date of next meeting was confirmed as 19 June 2024. This will be a hybrid meeting in Cardiff.