Flood and Coastal Erosion Committee meeting: 21 May 2025: Minutes

Committee Present: 

Martin Buckle (MB)    Chair
Paul Blackman (PB)    Wallingford Hydro Solutions
Anne-Marie Moon (AMM)    JBA Consulting
Geraint Edwards (GE)    Conwy County Borough Council (teams)
Paul Williams (PW)     NFU Cymru (teams)
Dominic Scott (DS)    Dwr Cymru – Welsh Water
Robin Campbell (RC)    Arup  
Natalie Haines (NH)    Mott MacDonald (teams)
Karen Potter (KP)    Open University
Andrew Stone (AS)    Rhondda Cynon Taf CBC    
Mike Wellington (MW)    WaterCo (teams)
Jean-Francois Dulong (JFD)                         Welsh Local Government Association
David James    (DJ)                 Welsh Local Government Association    

Welsh Government 

Tom Mclean (TM)(teams)        
Lowri Norrington-Davies (LND)            

Other Speakers

David Hughes (DH)
Roisin Wilmott (RW) Cardiff Council
Richard Colman (RC) Neath Port Talbot
Wyn Davies (WD) NRW
Ben Kathrens (BK) Carmarthenshire

Apologies

Catherine Wilson (CW)    Cardiff University
Jeremy Parr (JP)    NRW
Clare Fernandes (CF)    Welsh Government

The Chair gave the apologies and introductions were made.  
 

RC (ARUP) supporting NICW, and AMM / JBA supporting Mumbles Scheme.   
 

MB noted the minutes and matters arising; minutes from the last meeting were reviewed and approved without any objections. 

Action updates:

Updates were provided on actions from the last meeting, including the scheduling of a meeting with regional group chairs.

Outstanding Actions:

1. CF need to share Terms of Reference (ToR) for the Beaver Policy once drafted by the biodiversity team.
2. CF Capacity Building relating to new TAN15 – ongoing – Invitation to WG Planning to attend next meeting September.  

I would like to update the Committee on the meetings and events that I have attended since our last meeting.  

In March, I attended a meeting of the Flood and Coastal Risk Programme Board to review the implications of the NICW report for its role and work programme. The next meeting is scheduled to take place in July.

Also in March, with colleagues from the Resources Sub-Committee, I attended a workshop with the Deputy First Minister and Welsh Government colleagues to discuss skills and capacity Issues across the FCERM sector. Feedback from the workshop will be shared later on the agenda.

Again in March, I attended the quarterly meeting with the Chairs of the English Regional Flood and Coastal Committees. The meeting received an update on the forthcoming four year funding programmes in England, and on the priorities which will steer the schemes pipeline. As a follow up to that meeting, I met with the Manager of the Environment Agency’s Strategic Workforce Planning, Management and Skills Team. The next Chairs meeting takes place in June.

In May, I had one of my periodic update meetings with the chair of Natural Resources Wales Flood Risk Management Committee. Much of the discussion focussed on skills and capacity issues across the FCERM sector. We also reviewed the outcomes of NRW’s restructuring, and the implications of the Welsh Government response to the NICW report. 

Southwest Wales Flood Risk Management Group

Last meeting 11th March, – presentation on Community at Risk Register. Presentation from WG Programme outlining funding constraints and barriers. Discussed SABs and challenges associated with quantity of applications. SCBCEG Coastal Group Meeting held on 20th May to review 48 out of 70 Actions. 

• JFD good to hear progress in design but possibly a requirement for upskilling of SAB members. Suggested Building Control could be utilised to support but it was noted that they too are facing the same resource issues.
• AS raised point relating to fees, charges and the requirement to review. Noted that discharge conditions have no fee, and associated costs are very challenging. Serious need to rationalise the fees to support the administration and additional burden on LA staff.
• JFD confirmed there is ongoing work occurring with Ministers to see fees being increased to mitigate the additional work.
• DS asked if there was a requirement for the FCEC to increase knowledge on SuDS / SAB work? It was agreed that FCEC already have a very broad agenda and minded to keep an overview but not instigate a further group.
• MB acknowledged NRW would also be presenting on the Communities at Risk Register at the next meeting.

North Wales Group

GE reiterated issues with SuDS, developers designing builds but often adding drainage as an afterthought which does not work.

• 10th April last meeting, Flood Risk Maps and Communities at Risk reports disucssed alongside a S19 subgroup, request for further training support.

Southeast Group

 - no meeting since the last, next scheduled for Mid-June. RCT noted pressures on resource and loss of staff to other organisations. SAB work and pressures of Storm Events and Local Strategies put huge pressure on staff.

• JFD reflected on the inconsistencies of responding to SAB applications.
• AS commented on pressures relating to inspectors managing the SuDS and development of drainage in new developments. Very few formal enforcement cases currently, but there is extreme pressures on LA officers which is very noticeable.
• RC also agreed skills capacity is an issue.

Richard Colman - Drainage Manager, Neath Port Talbot Council. 

Presentation received outlining the scheme detail, and a great example of upskilling. RC acknowledged that the Project Supervisor, who originally joined the Council as an apprentice, has progressed and now qualified. 

Discussion:

WD – noted that the scheme details are now captured on the National Asset Data Base.

The subsequent discussion focused on the scheme’s role in relation to corporate Net Zero targets, and the role of community engagement in facilitating scheme delivery.

David Hughes - Group Leader, Engineering Design Services, City and County of Swansea

Presentation provided outlining detail with again a significant apprentice presence within the team to support future needs. Official Ministerial opening on the 15th of July.

Questions / feedback

Q. Was extra funding required for the wider benefits? 

A. Secured circa £3M extra, have brought wider partnership funding to support the additional needs.

Q. Did the Council ask business to support the development?

• NA noted the additional benefits and the complete need to undertake this work, Schemes can’t just be built as flood only the wider benefits must be a key consideration.
• RC welcomed the project and specifically recognition of the wider recreational benefits.
• TM noted the split in funding needed to be amended.

9.1 The minutes of the Resources Sub-Committee 27.03.25 were noted, including the wider discussion relating to the skills & capacity as well as the FloodRe report and partnership element of the resources report. 
Discussion:

9.1.1 Skills & Capacity in Flood and Coastal Erosion Risk Management in Wales – Briefing Note for a meeting with the Deputy First Minister, 05.03.25.

Produced a briefing note for the workshop; worth noting many of the same issues have since been reflected in a number of wider initiatives. Critical issue being the lack of skills and capacity in the industry, identified the key constraints and put forward key proposals, with a wider group and preparation of a strategic work force plan. Introducing a rolling multiyear plan and the reintroduction of hypothecation. Acknowledge that this paper has successfully achieved and opened much wider dialogue.

• AMM noted the loss of apprentices being trained or qualified who then possibly go traveling, how can they be offered an incentive to stay.
• AS also noted, a skills gap in general not just white collar but wider, noting the base skills and capacity need to be increased.
• RC the 4 key considerations being presented how can these be built on? the funding available is not sufficient to bring these recommendations forward.
• NH Minimum salary for wider visas and graduate salary must be higher if the country wants to entice wider expertise, will constrain the workforce.
• MB must recognise the huge work Alison Kitchener is undertaking across the whole portfolio must also note this is being driven by the lack of resource in the Public Sector.
• MB it’s worth bringing the private sector perspectives into the needs.
• RC worth noting most LA staff movement if internally not lost to consultancies
• JFD funding to public sector is key

9.1.2 Regional Groups – verbal report

MB provided a verbal report on a meeting in early 2025 between FCEC members and regional group chairs. This meeting was called to consider the governance of the regional flood groups, to review collaboration between the Committee and the Groups, and to discuss the implications of the NICW report for the groups.
9.2 To receive an update from the Section 19 Sub-Committee - 16.05.25.

PB advised that the DEFRA Guidance was now available. It is useful as reference but not necessarily fit for direct adoption in Wales. Short standardised welsh template should be created.

JFD – Misunderstanding of what is needed, what needs to be achieved internally to ensure compliance with the legislation and then how the RMA as identified would take forward the commitment. There is uncertainty on the requirements of S19 and the needs of a flood report. S19 identifies the RMA which should be a quick process, what is needed? Prior to who needs to work with them to create a flood report.

9.3 To note the following ministerial decision report:

“Flood and Coastal Risk Management - 15 April 2025 – The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs has approved the creation of a time limited, Task and Finish Group, to consider workforce issues for the Flood and Coastal Risk Management external workforce and approved £30,000 to support the work in 2025 to 2026. The Task and Finish Group to come back with realistic achievable ideas and options, reflecting the here and now, as well as more ambitious, longer-term courses of action.” 

Minister has approved via the funding the need to move this forward, again as strong ambition.

9.4 To receive an update from the Workforce Task & Finish Group 20.05.25, and to consider the terms of reference. (Annex included which contains a briefing note and action log from meeting.)

Overall structure of ToR should be very familiar to all, considered and broadly comfortable, not requirement to amend. Purpose is therefore very clear, timescales have since been modified, to reflect next WG Budget Planning in September. If WG funding is not promising we will need to look at wider routes, also considering wider attendance from other institutions as well as other Policy departments in Government. ToR Approved by the committee

RW provided and update on the Workforce Group:

• Framework and promoting
• Training programme with system of placements
• Different Models for bringing designed skill sets but including wider policy areas like Coal tips
• Looking at modelling and 2-year courses
• General conclusion something to go into the next budget round, it has to be simple and straight forward with an entry level requirement.
• Particular focus is on Public Sector primarily NRW and Local Government. 

Questions / discussion:

RC – keen to have a more detailed conversation, aim of the activity, is to support FCERM- need to make clear what this is, there are a number of institutions that support this area CIWM / ICE why are they not being used to turbo charge.

DS – why not use organisation like this Welsh Water to have placements, has to be sustainability longer-term. How can we be more efficient on AI what can this do to support work? MB interesting dimension but DWR Cymru are different in their funding.

MW – reiterated huge importance of expertise with apprenticeships 

AMM – as an organisation they have many placements 6-12mths long. 

NRW noted they now have 32 vacant posts all at higher level expertise required. 

Noted that often organisation are employing staff and using their expertise to the best needs, rather than recruiting for specific positions

Tom Mclean - Head of Flood Risk Management Implementation, Welsh Government.

TM provided an update on Programme funding, staffing issues and key policy areas being progressed.

Technical Advice Note 15 - Development, Flooding and Coastal Erosion – Robin Campbell.

RC presented his views on the new TAN 15 and differences between this and previously consulted version. 

• Several areas in the TAN will depend heavily on its interpretation fall on NRW.
• How are NRW capturing the issues raised by the TAN, this is imperative to ensure consistency?
• Concern that this will put much more work on the LLFAs who will need to review the drainage statement and surface water management.
• Issues with training needs, currently JBA are supporting many LAs.
• Fundamentally there is a lot of good material in the TAN, specifically in the thinking that underpins it, but there need to more practical views where improvements or gaps need to be considered.
• There needs to be a policy for monitoring how the TAN is being interpreted and applied.
• There may be a requirement for Flood Programme to ensure there is an understanding that flood funding can not be accessed for redevelopment.
• Data collection will follow the same format from 1st April. 

Action RC / All - Committee members’ TAN15 issues and concerns, to be collected for discussion with WG Planning at the next FCEC meeting.

Responses to Consultations and Way Forward – Karen Potter.12.1 

Feedback and presentation provided to the committee, proposes to get synopsis approved for further consideration at the Resources Sub-Committee prior to discussion at next meeting in September. Action KP

• Defra Research Project- Property Flood Resilience (PFR) Evidence Review
• Action: CF to provide feedback on Task Force
• Action: CF to obtain data on FloodRe insurance, what will happen in 2039 when scheme stops.

Review by the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales – Response by the Deputy First Minister – TM.

TM outlined the Welsh government response to the NICW recommendations. Following a discussion, it was agreed that the response would be referred to the FCEC Sub-Committees to consider the implications for the Committee, with reports back to the next meeting. Action – Sub-Committee Chairs

• Section 4 – looking ahead and reference to NICW report and specifically the recommendation for a new National Strategy.
• In the Minister’s response there is no proposal to review, but a review conversation is needed.  There is an expectation that this issue will be returned to in the next Senedd.
• NRW S18 will be reviewed in the next meeting
• Committee members feedback, appraisal and engagement is much appreciated.
• Work programme and adaptability is welcomed.
• Sector continuously under resourced
• Visibility of Subgroups been raised
• Approved by the Committee

To consider the report of the Chair on the update of the Work Programme  

Update approved

None. 
 

Thursday 4th September 2025, Microsoft Teams - Virtual