Flood and Coastal Erosion Committee meeting: 26 November 2024: minutes

Committee Present: 

Martin Buckle (MB)    Chair
Darren Thomas (DT)    Pembrokeshire County Council
Paul Blackman (PB)    Wallingford Hydro Solutions
Anne-Marie Moon (AMM)    JBA Consulting
Mike Wellington (MW)    Waterco
Geraint Edwards (GE)    Conwy County Borough Council    
Paul Williams (PW)     NFU Cymru
Dominic Scott (DS)    Dwr Cymru – Welsh Water
Robin Campbell (RC)    Arup  
Natalie Haines (NH)    Mott MacDonald
Karen Potter (KP)    Open University
Jean-Francois Dulong (JFD)    Welsh Local Government Association

Welsh Government 

Clare Fernandes (CF)            
Lowri Norrington-Davies (LND)        
Laura Walters (LW)
            

Other Speakers

Keith Ivens (KI)    Natural Resources Wales
Llion Wyn Pritchard, (LP)    Gwynedd Council 
Rob Williams (RW)    Gwynedd Council
Emyr Gareth (EG)    Gwynedd Council.
Tom Hayek (TH)    Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust
Celia Davis (CD)                 Town & Country Planning Association
David James                    Welsh Local Government Association

Apologies:

Andrew Stone (AS)    Rhondda Cynon Taf CBC    
Jeremy Parr (JP)    Natural Resources Wales
Catherine Wilson (CW)    Cardiff University

The Chair gave the apologies and introductions were made.

RC personally involved in NICW Report – Agenda item 13.

MB noted the minutes and matters arising; minutes from the last meeting were reviewed and approved without any objections. 

Action updates:

Updates were provided on actions from the last meeting, including the scheduling of a meeting with regional group chairs and the publication of the Welsh climate resilience strategy.
Outstanding Actions:

1. C/F need to check if Terms of Reference (ToR) on UK Task Force are available. - CF
2. C/F need to share Terms of Reference (ToR) for the Beaver Policy once drafted by the biodiversity team.
3. Complete – Alison Kitchener met with sub committee and are preparing key messages for DFM meeting in the new year.

The Chair made the following announcements:

I would like to update the Committee on the meetings and events that I have attended since our last meeting.  

In September, I attended the quarterly meeting with the Chairs of the English Regional Flood and Coastal Committees. The meeting received an update from Emma Hardy MP, the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Water and Flooding, on the new UK flood risk task force. The meeting also received a presentation on reservoir safety, and on the case for reviewing relevant legislation. The next meeting of the RFCC chairs takes place next week.

Also in September I met with the Wales Audit Office, who are considering following up on their 2022 review of flood risk management in Wales.

In October, I attended a meeting of the Flood and Coastal Risk Programme Board. We were updated on proposed changes to the grants offered to risk management authorities and changes to the Business Case Guidance. We also received an update on the Natural Flood Management Accelerator Programme. In addition, the Board received an overview of the work programme of our Resources Sub- Committee, with an opportunity to review topics to be taken forward through the Board.

Also in October, I met with the Director of the Royal Town Planning Institute in Wales to discuss concerns raised by the Committee in our response to the TAN15 consultation, about the need to review permitted development rights in flood risk areas. These can allow some developments to proceed without a planning application and can allow changes of use from low vulnerability to high vulnerability uses.

Again, in October, I met with the new chair of the Wessex Regional Flood and Coastal Committee to share an update on cross-border collaboration.

Finally, and also in October, I met with Natural Resources Wales for a further discussion about the Communities at Risk Register.

Looking ahead, in December I have a meeting scheduled with the Deputy First Minister to review the Committee’s progress and to provide an update on our work programme.

Also in December, I have a meeting with NICW to discuss their current workstream on climate communication.

DT noted key points from the Southwest (SW) Wales Flood Risk Management Group Regional AGM meeting. 

The last Swansea & Carmarthen Bay Coastal Engineering Group (SCBCEG) meeting was held on 10th September. 

West Wales Coastal Group

DT next meeting 10th December. Work been undertaken by Neith Port talbot on training, FCERM teams trying to finish the Flood Risk Management Strategies for approval. Storm Bert – regions quite lucky with only a few impacts, deadlines quite tight to get returns to WG. There is feeling of lack of engagement and connectivity between the regional group and the FCEC. Two topics:

• some of the work that's been undertaken by the subcommittees, the action plan, as it were, is not visible on a routine basis to the regional group.
• members of the regional group don't get the opportunity to meet, perhaps as we are today here face to face.

North Wales Group

Met virtually on17th Oct – next meeting January 2025 with a face to face in April. The group are now sharing presentations received from the FCEC with members. WLGA joined last meeting to update on priorities and appreciated some of the challenges around resources and discussed best practices. Strong feeling of lack of engagement relating to some of the work being undertaken and not shared with the regional groups. Further resourcing ideas being considered including introducing lower-level officers but with a clearer indication of career path and progression opportunities.  

Southeast Group (SE)

15th November last meeting, discussed prioritisation of Local Strategies, regional group asked for timescales!! Action to explore partnership funding and regional partnership working. 

Asked WG to give an idea as to the time scales for return and comments on local strategies, and the extent of review. 

Llion Wyn Pritchard, Gwynedd Council and Keith Ivens, Natural Resources Wales.
LP & KI presented updates on the Fairbourne project, including community engagement, health impact assessments, and ongoing asset management and the future Strategic Outline Case.

Questions / discussion:

Q.. DT intrigued why NRW are funding so much collaboration?

A. NRW don’t fund, it’s a community flood group, more intervention rather than adaptation. KI made clear adaptation must be the future but how is the difficulty.

Q. AMM how are Gwynedd engaging with the community?

A. The key is being open and transparent, hence the wider work to remove poor terminology like decommissioning. Long-term management has to be via the SOC. The community are keen to understand what does beyond 2054 mean.

Q. RC SMP and Gwynedd appear to be riding the wave, is this Business as usual, what do these strategic choices mean to other communities? Is this the level of investment required for all communities? Or is this a pilot for others to understand the process.

A. LND - as far as we're concerned, consider this as a pilot and it's something that we're sharing much wider via UK, and DEFRA have utilised the work that's been undertaken to further support the joint service board research. WG feel this is us progressing learning what adaptation means. Likewise, with Newgale and many other locations where changes have occurred, we hope to bring all these examples together with links to support wider collaboration and sharing of processes.

Q. How are policies integrated, there appear to be 5 building plots for sale in Fairbourne right behind the sea wall? How can there be any development when the future of the village is unknown? Where is the integration in this now, how is that managed?

A. This required further investigation, however, having plots for sale does not necessarily mean there is planning consent. Gwynedd confirmed to their knowledge there hadn’t been any new planning permissions granted for development over the last 15 years, neither were there extensions being approved beyond a certain size.

DT also said its worth noting the huge work being undertaken in Pembrokeshire via the National Parks local development plan. They have identified coastal change management areas where they have distinctively different policies to those that apply elsewhere.

Rob Williams and Emyr Gareth, Gwynedd Council.

Felinheli presentation, uses for sensors and how they can benefit communities with lead time for long-term resilience - Promoting the technology available to support.

Questions / feedback

Q. MW asked about coverage on Wi-Fi gateways?

A. There are issues with signal however in general the authority tend to use schools and wider council networks available to them.

Q. KP what support is given to engagement and community volunteers. 

A. Helped hugely by an agreement to provide insurance cover to the volunteers, this enables individuals to feel supported if necessary.

Q. JFD does the system talk to NRW gauges and how these support each other? 
 

A. Yes within the next few weeks they should be interconnecting to support catchment-based approach to flood risk management.

Presentation provided on “A case study from the Thames Region” ; Tom Hayek - Senior Project Manager (Nature-based Solutions), Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust.

Questions / discussion:

Q. PW asked about funding and maintenance
 
A. Funded by Regional Flood & Coastal Committee. WWT employ 500 (10 centres across UK including Llanelli)

Monitoring for both Phase 2/3 have slightly larger ask which should bring more data, this combined with EAs joint work using existing river data to evidence the effectiveness.

AMM the Map showed wide LLFA areas but being RFCC funded did this limit? The example of work undertaken was to resolve and find landowners it explained the benefits, however it did overcome all barriers.

Q.DS asked if there was any evidence to support the opportunity map?

A. there is but it needed more ground trooping hence not being published.

Celia Davis, Projects and Policy Manager, Town and Country Planning Association.
A similar training programme to that provided in England could potentially be created for Wales. This programme was designed in collaboration with EA who proofread material to make sure its reflecting National Policy.

Questions / discussion:

Q. KP noted issues go beyond planning, and asked if there is training for non-planners? 
A. Conscious of the audience and have different tiers to have a wider understanding at the correct level, are aware of specific issues and try to tailor the levels.

Q. JFD - need to note that there are different planning policies in Wales, however this sounds of interest. Must note that there have been 70% staff cuts in Wales and capacity is an issue, they just don’t have the time to undertake their work let alone additional training. 

A. Town & Country Planning Association have not seen this as an issue in England and see this as a priority. Participation at event or eLearning has been packaged to be accessible via smaller chunks. 

JFD - WLGA would be keen to work specifically to support elected members. 
Action JFD

Q RC asked how is this funded? 

A. Partnership is funded via EA via the National Strategy that recognised lack of understanding in roles and responsibilities.

MB noted this appears to be an excellent model for England and can recognise the different relationships with WG / NRW to EA and what can be offered possibly via a different funding model. 

MB noted clearly WG would need to be included, our changes in Wales following TAN15 will also need consideration to bring better tailored training.

Much movement in the team, Leanne Llewellyn has moved on, post is advertised and hopefully interviews will occur post-Christmas. James Jewell-Davies as secretariat has also left, post is advertised and hoping to recruit early in the early new year. Technical team have 3 vacancies.

Programme 

Revenue Budget is 200K pressure remains, which is being managed via the wider WG division. 

Capital again pressures, 32 Schemes were announced in the 2024/25 FCERM Programme, 15 have been awarded Grant Offer letter to date. Of the initial 32 schemes announced, we prioritised 17 Construction schemes intended to create flood assets to reduce risk of flooding to 532 properties. To date we have awarded 6 Grant Offer Letters (166 Properties). We do not anticipate receiving further applications this financial year and have welcomed the submission of these schemes for consideration in next year’s programme.

During the Q2 we have received almost 200 claims from new and previously committed FCERM schemes totalling more than £3.6m.

Local Strategies: Progressing with the approvals, have received 5 drafts RCT / Torfaen / Gwynedd, Merthyr and Caerphilly these will receive feedback by end 2024. 
DJ is working with wider LAs to get outstanding submitted and if not available will provide a status report with timelines. Action DJ.

Winter Preparedness: feeding into the wider resilience. Sitting on UK task and finish group to bring a more holistic approach.

Questions / discussion:

Q. RC asked if there was prompt for a Flood Review

A. CF confirmed we are still very much in response mode. During recovery we will have an opportunity to consider the S19 Reviews that occurred and consider what was undertaken to look at flood preparedness.

Q. NH concern over delivery and structure of the modified TAN15 document, what is the final version going to look like and when?

A. CF TAN15 will be delivered in the Winter, based on of the 2nd edition. CF clarified the need to appreciate the wider pressures from different groups and conflicting policy agendas that need to be considered.

12.1           Resources Sub-Committee.

12.1.1     Minutes of the meetings on: 17.10.24 and 14.11.24

Held meetings in Oct / Nov covering a range of issues:

• It’s Clear the NICW review will have very significant resource issues, which will be reflected later in the agenda.
• Insurance and FloodRe has been discussed which has led to the report.
• Further work on the Skills and Capacity review across Environmental and sustainability sector is occurring.  Alison Kitchener has been asked to work on this theme, with Skills and Capacity as being a key area. WG have requested a workshop be convened to enable practitioners to discuss in more detail. A further meeting was held to reflect on the ask, with an issue on declining capacity, lack of skills, aging workforce and greater dependence on consultancy work.
• The wider implications on deteriorating budgets and uncertainty on longer-term funding was also discussed as was how better engagement can occur, further meeting arranged for early Jan with a view to a workshop in February. 

12.1.2     Insurance & Flood Re – A Wales Perspective – Karen Potter

KP presentation provided to highlight some of the issues, and limitations with an over reliance on FloodRe which does not include businesses or coastal erosion.

Further dialogue required to appreciate how we can improve standards. 

Modelling standards and limitations exist hence NRW being reluctant to offer information on individual property issues. NRW would not build defences to support new development.

• Action for LND to see if Property Flood Resilience report, which will not be published could be shared with the FCEC via the confidential agenda. 

MB propose asking Flood Re and ABI to come and present at next meeting. Action MB

12.2         To receive the minutes of the following meetings:

12.2.1     Research Sub-Committee 10.09.24.

KP in place of chair, set out ToR – meeting 4 times a year and  external participants. How Wales identifies research needs and gaps and challenges. 

RC - Miro board still live asking for input on wider areas to consider the outcomes and future direction. 

It was noted that attendance at any sub-committee is open for the chair to invite as required from organisations represented on the Committee. Trying to establish and identify what gaps. Environment Platform Wales could be a key partner.

12.2.2     Section 19 Sub-Committee 11.10.24.

DT – Sub-Committee met on the 11th Oct for the 3rd meeting – Prof Elwyn Evans – provided an overview of her report and provided detail on the key areas, with emphasis on the lack of Legal framework and reporting standards or best practices. Specific priorities and the ongoing work occurring with DEFRA should further support this work.

Measure in the National Strategy ask for Section 19 investigation reports to be simpler. The subgroup is working to support the commitment to better understanding of wider issues and will need to consider the DEFRA research. 

Regional group representation on the committee would be welcome to give a wider understanding. 

Action LND to share Defra S19 publication.  

12.2.3     Policy & Legislation Sub-Committee 05.11.24.

No minutes currently available. 

Law Commission work recognised to being an important piece of longer-term work. 

FCEC Response – Chair.

Many proposals by the FCEC have been included in the NICW report. The Commission has acknowledged and added further substance to the committee’s proposals in their report. These include catchment approaches, and the importance of adaptation and resilience. The report broadly brings some similar views, but deliverability and scale are questioned. The consolidated perspective draws on wider views, other recommendations were for a new 30-year strategy and stronger planning policy.  

MB updated group on WG’s commitment to respond formally on the report within 6 months and expect WG would consider the FCEC views.

RC mentioned a conversation with NICW Chair looking at land buy out ideas and how this could better support broader thinking in Wales.

Annual Update and Challenges 

How can FCEC support? -  Anne-Marie Moon.  

Broad update provided in relation to functionality, remit and measures within the National Strategy. Reference made to perceived widened attendance and update on enhanced work being undertaken to support Measures 10 / 11.

NRW mapping is now showing much clear communication of SMP policy, sub policy qualifiers, and huge work has been undertaken to rationalisation and reduction in actions. 

WCMC brief update provided on their work.

WCGF brief update provided on Coastal adaptation, engagement. 

Key Challenges – loss of expertise, engagement with at risk communities and coastal adaptation. 

Questions / discussion:

•  An update was provided on several wider policy change needs, and the assets facing coastal change project.
• DS suggested it would be a good idea if the regional groups were to invite the WCGF chair with a view to providing a presentation to better understand the level of coastal work occurring to support SMP Policy change.
• WCGF are producing a report for the resource subgroup.
• West of Wales Coastal Group meetings occurring, there was an action from the last meeting to verify.
• LND asked that we recognise the shear level of work that’s been undertaken by NRW in further enhancing the mapping to include SMP policy, matching what is available in England via the explorer platform.

To consider the report of the Chair on the update of the Work Programme. 

Work undertaken reviewed, noted that theme 11 refers to wider resilience and that WG have since published the national climate adaptation strategy. 

The update was agreed.

None.

Wednesday 19th February 2025, Microsoft Teams