Social Partnership Council meeting, 12 March 2025: minutes

1. The First Minister welcomed attendees to the sixth meeting of the Social Partnership Council (SPC). She provided an overview of the agenda, confirming she would leave after item 2 and that the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership would then chair the remainder of the meeting. 

2. The purpose of this item was to discuss the Welsh Government’s legislative priorities for the remainder of the Senedd term and canvas views from SPC members on potential future legislation. The information provided to members was not in the public domain and so could not be disclosed.
    
3. The First Minister outlined the position of the legislative programme given the current Senedd term and the importance of engaging with social partners on this process. She asked Charlie Thomas, Head of the Welsh Government’s Legislation Division, to provide more detail on the Bills yet to be introduced to the Senedd and the timings around these.
    
4. Charlie Thomas (Welsh Government) referred to the previous consultation that had taken place with members at the SPC meeting on 4 June 2024. Charlie outlined the Bills that would be introduced to the Senedd over the coming months and explained the timings of their introduction as well as the First Minister’s annual Legislative Statement. Following Charlie’s update, members provided their views on the legislative programme. The comments raised would be fed back to the relevant Ministers, but due to the confidential status of the discussion, it was agreed these would not be recorded in the minute.
    
5. The First Minister outlined future timings for engaging with the SPC on legislative priorities. She asked members to provide any ideas on technical bills that were likely to have cross party support beyond the current Senedd term to the SPC Secretariat. 

Action: Members to be provided with a confidential written paper on the legislative programme.

Action: Members to provide ideas on any technical bills that are likely to have cross party support that could be proposed for future consideration beyond the current Senedd term to the SPC Secretariat. 

6. Following the departure of the First Minister, the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership chaired the meeting, welcoming Sian Boyles (PCS) and Russell Greenslade (CBI) to their first SPC after replacing Darren Williams and Ian Price respectively.
    
7. The Minister explained that the purpose of this item was for the SPC to agree the draft Welsh Ministers’ Annual Report demonstrating how, for 2024-25, Cabinet had complied with the duty placed on Ministers under the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act. He reminded members they had previously agreed to be consulted each year on the three overarching levers for the strategic delivery of the Programme for Government namely, the review of Well-being objectives, the legislative programme, and budget priorities. The Minister said that should members agree the report the Secretariat would make the necessary arrangements for it to be published and laid before the Senedd.  
    
8. Helen Whyley (RCN Wales) felt the time period of the report was unclear and that not enough detail had been provided under each of the three overarching levers being reported on. Helen asked for members’ views to be included more fully so the report was more comprehensive. She also felt there needed to be greater clarity regarding the overall consultation process for engaging with the SPC.
    
9. Shavanah Taj (TUC Cymru) welcomed the general level of consultation that had taken place but supported Helen Whyley’s calls for greater detail to be provided in the report. Shavanah also stressed the importance of supporting facility time across the public bodies so that trade union representatives were able to fully consider the implications of the Social Partnership Duty when engaging with employers.  
    
10. Sian Boyles (PCS) welcomed the level of consultation demonstrated at the SPC but referred to the poor engagement processes that were in place with some devolved employers.
     
11. Ben Cottam (Business) spoke of the need to get the level of detail in the report correct as greater detail could lead to greater scrutiny. This then could inhibit members’ ability to speak freely, particularly on confidential matters. In addition, Ben noted that very detailed reports could be overly burdensome to readers.  
     
12. The Minister acknowledged the comments made by members about the draft report and said officials would consider these before providing a revised version for them to agree ahead of the next SPC. He explained that he had issued a letter to all public bodies emphasising the importance of trade union facility time and that a copy of this would be provided to members.
     
13. A short break of 10minutes followed this item.

Action: SPC Secretariat to circulate revised Welsh Ministers’ Annual Report to members for agreement before the next meeting of the Council.

Action: SPC Secretariat to provide a copy of the letter from the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership to public bodies emphasising the importance of trade union facility time to members. 

14. The Minister explained that upskilling and reskilling the workforce would be crucial in addressing the challenges and opportunities presented by AI. He said the Centre for Digital Public Services was supporting the public sector in Wales to adopt AI responsibly and that its Steering Group would enable public service workers to discuss the benefits, risks and challenges it presented. The Minister confirmed the Welsh Government was already responding to the potential impact of AI in a number of ways. This included creating a digital skills element within the longstanding Flexible Skills Programme to support employers in upskilling their staff to meet future economic needs.  
     
15. The Minister said that the Regional Skills Partnerships (RSPs) had a key role in engaging with employers, as well as education and training providers, to identify emerging skills requirements. He outlined RSP activity in West Wales relating to AI and added that education providers in receipt of Welsh Government funding would actively look at how this technology could change the way skills were developed. He invited members’ views on whether the SPC should look at skills capabilities relating to AI and how this might be taken forward. The Minister invited Ruth Brady, the chair of the Workforce Partnership Council’s (WPC) disbanded AI Steering Group, to open the discussion by reflecting on her experience.
     
16. Ruth Brady (GMB) supported the paper with its focus on developing AI skills for the workforce and welcomed further involvement in this work by the trade unions. Ruth emphasised the importance of understanding the risks of AI, including the misuse of algorithmic technology on insecure and poorly paid forms of employment such as social care.
     
17. Jess Turner supported Ruth’s comments, stressing the need to develop a distinctly Welsh approach to the ethical use of AI, whilst acknowledging the benefits presented by this technology. Jess agreed the importance of focussing on workforce upskilling but warned against the pace at which AI was developing and already endangering jobs. She made the point that most AI software was developed by private companies and so public services were at the mercy of market forces. To address this, Jess flagged the need for the public sector to develop its own AI expertise to improve the way in which organisations understood the technology available to them.  
     
18. Wendy Larner (Higher Education) agreed with the challenges identified and the need to develop a distinctly Welsh approach to AI. Wendy explained that AI was part of university curriculums across many different subjects and supported the need to strengthen AI skills education. She flagged current funding pressures within her sector that might impact on this ambition.
     
19. Gareth Lloyd (UCU) emphasised the importance of ensuring the guiding principle behind the use of AI was that it would help manage workloads without reducing the workforce. Gareth said there were already some good examples of social partnership working in this area but stressed the need for sectors to develop their own expertise to ensure there was an ethical approach to AI.  
     
20. Neil Butler (NASUWT), in reference to a question raised in the paper for this item, confirmed that NASUWT’s own work had revealed that over 70% of secondary school computer science teachers felt there was not sufficient capacity or expertise to adapt to AI technology and that this increased significantly for non-specialists. He felt that currently there was no collective activity to consider this issue and highlighted additional concerns regarding capacity/expertise at primary school level.
     
21. Ben Cottam referred to a significant deficit in AI skills capability within Small and Medium Sized Enterprises (SMEs) across Wales. Ben explained that SMEs were trying to use AI innovatively but that due to the rise in National Insurance Contributions some were looking to use the technology to reduce staff numbers, raising a worrying trend. He outlined the range of work across the UK to consider AI and the need for the SPC to ensure it added value to this activity whilst avoiding duplication.  
     
22. Russell Greenslade (Business) acknowledged the ethical concerns regarding the use of AI but explained that many of his members were finding innovative ways to use this technology whilst minimising its negative impacts. Russell cited a recent survey by the CBI that found larger businesses were successfully integrating AI into their operations and welcomed further involvement in this work.
     
23. Janis Richards (Business) explained that manufacturers were considering the different implications of automation and AI. Janis stressed the many drivers behind AI and the importance of trying to mitigate any negative impacts on employment.
     
24. Wendy Larner emphasised the importance of developing work on AI skills assessment and offered to engage further with members outside of the meeting on this.
     
25. Shavanah Taj emphasised the importance of equalities work in developing an ethical approach to AI and the need to understand the implications of this technology on specific groups often found in more vulnerable forms of employment.
     
26. The Minister confirmed that the SPC Secretariat would now proceed with the options outlined in the paper for this item at pace, stressing the importance of avoiding duplication with other forums. He invited Glyn Jones, the Welsh Government’s Chief Digital Officer, to make any final comments.
     
27. Glyn Jones (Welsh Government) thanked members for their advice and supported the need to develop the options in the paper at pace so that Wales did not fall behind in developing its own distinct approach to AI. Glyn looked forward to working further with the SPC to achieve this.

Action: Welsh Government officials to progress the further work on AI suggested in paper (SPC06-04) taking into account members’ views.

28. The Minister explained that the planned inception meeting of the Working Group on Fair Work in Business Grants (scheduled for the 25 February) had been postponed following quoracy issues and that a new date was being sought. He noted that this issue had attracted interest outside of the SPC including the Senedd’s Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee. The Minister asked Ben Cottam and Peter Hughes, as the joint chairs of the Working Group, to provide an update to the SPC.
     
29. Ben Cottam thanked those members who had volunteered to be on the Working Group and confirmed a new date for the inception meeting was being arranged. Ben explained that the intention was to establish a 6-meeting cycle up to the summer. He added that the Group were planning to meet with the Welsh Government’s Economic Contract Evaluation Team and the Scottish Government to discuss their work on conditions of grant.
     
30. Peter Hughes explained that the Working Group had not met due to quoracy issues but explained work was now being prepared so that activity could begin at pace once the meeting was convened.  

Action: SPC Secretariat to ensure a further update from the Fair Work in Business Grants Group is provided at the next SPC meeting.

31. The Minister confirmed that the Minster for Further and Higher Education and James Owen, the Chief Operating Officer for Medr, were present to provide an update on social partnership working in HE/FE. He explained that this item would provide an opportunity to discuss sector level challenges and asked members not to raise specific issues relating to individual institutions and then invited the Minister for Further and Higher Education to speak.
     
32. The Minister for Further and Higher Education said she wanted to discuss how to establish a culture of sustainable social partnership within HE/FE. The Minister confirmed TUC Cymru had written to her about this issue and that she welcomed the opportunity to consider this matter with the Council. She outlined the progress made in developing social partnership in FE, explaining that Welsh Government had been working closely with Joint Trade Unions and colleges to support the voluntary development of social partnership approaches.
     
33. The Minister referenced the importance of local level social partnerships, how they offered firm foundations for addressing cross sector challenges and had also helped avoid industrial action. She explained that on the 18 February she set out the actions being taken by the Welsh Government to support HE and drive government’s ambitions for learners. The Minister said that in TUC Cymru’s recent letter to her they had recognised the HE sector’s vital role in relation to all parts of public services and the wider economy, a point she had also made in her recent Written Statement to the Senedd.
     
34. The Minister confirmed that in recent weeks she had met the Vice Chancellors, Universities Wales and trade unions emphasising her expectations that they would work in social partnership to explore all options before considering compulsory redundancies. The Minister stressed the importance of the ‘Welsh Way’ of working towards true social partnership both within and across tertiary education settings. She then asked James Owen to talk about Medr’s role in promoting collaboration, participation and social partnership in HE/FE.
     
35. James Owen (Medr) explained that the organisation had become operational the previous year, inheriting functions from the Welsh Government and the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales regarding HE/FE. James explained that Medr’s primary role related to funding and regulating the HE/FE and research sector in Wales. He said that the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022 had placed social partnership at the centre of Medr’s operations and had influenced the development of their organisation’s strategic plan. James added that the Plan also recognised the duties created by the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023.
     
36. James outlined the wider benefits of HE/FE organisations to local communities beyond job creation, reflecting on the sense of civic mission they possessed. He talked about Medr’s role in working closely with them on their financial plans to ensure longer term sustainability and the mitigating actions being taken to address pressures currently facing the sector. James emphasised the expectation on HE/FE providers to work in social partnership with trade unions to manage change and outlined the package of support being developed to support them.
     
37. Gareth Lloyd noted the improved relationships that existed between trade unions and HE/FE organisations because of Medr’s creation. Gareth acknowledged the importance of the additional funding that had been provided to HE/FE by Welsh Government but referenced the on-going campaign to lobby the UK Government on changes to its current funding model. He stressed the need for collaboration between compulsory and tertiary education to fill gaps in provision and the need for a breathing space so the HE/FE sector could consider the challenges it was facing. To support this, Gareth asked for a commitment from all universities that there would be no compulsory redundancies in the current, or the next, academic year and that the SPC issue a robust statement to this effect, emphasising the importance of working in social partnership.
     
38. Helen Whyley reflected that the concept of civic mission referenced by James Owen did not always translate fully into ways of working within HE/FE. Helen supported calls for a statement but felt the Welsh Government could go further by making engagement with trade unions a condition of grant to universities and other training providers.
     
39. Wendy Larner emphasised that HE institutions were exploring all options to avoid compulsory redundancies but reminded members that they were autonomous organisations accountable to their own councils for the decisions they made. She welcomed the work of Medr in developing social partnership so that all parties could work constructively together.
     
40. Sian Boyles highlighted the good relationships that PCS had with Medr but voiced concerns over the reduction in courses being offered due to funding constraints and the impact this might have on students.
     
41. Russell Greenslade said he had only seen TUC Cymru’s letter late the previous day and so had not had the opportunity to consider it in detail.
     
42. Jess Turner agreed with the SPC making a robust statement regarding HE/FE and stressed the importance of prioritising those in the most vulnerable forms of employment within the sector such as support staff.
     
43. Shavanah Taj supported a statement calling for no compulsory redundancies. She referred to the importance of HE/FE in supporting the delivery of Wales’ Industrial Strategy and the need for the SPC to be a space where the most important cross-sector issues could be discussed to effect real change.
     
44. Ben Cottam shared other members’ concerns regarding the challenges facing HE/FE. Ben explained that this sector was peripheral to the FSB’s core focus and so they were not sufficiently sighted on the reasons behind specific organisations decisions regarding restructuring. On this basis, he felt it was not possible, at that time, for the FSB to agree a statement that supported calls for no compulsory redundancies within HE/FE.  
     
45. The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership said there had been broad agreement on the importance of social partnership at this meeting but emphasised that should the SPC wish to issue a statement it would need to be agreed by all members.
     
46. The Minister for Further and Higher Education recognised the importance of the trade unions lobbying the UK Government on changes to the HE/FE funding model. The Minister also explained that she was in discussion with her UK Government counterpart to feed in views to their review into the HE/FE sector’s funding arrangements. She emphasised the economic importance of the sector and the need to increase participation levels. The Minister noted that recent media reporting on redundancies tended to focus on academics but she acknowledged the crucial role of support staff within HE/FE institutions.
     
47. The Minister recognised calls for a statement supporting no compulsory redundancies but emphasised the autonomous nature of HE/FE institutions. She explained that Welsh Government provided only 10% of their annual funding, limiting the levers it had to influence their decisions on restructuring. The Minister explained that the additional funding provided to HE/FE had been identified from underspends across government departments and that Cabinet agreed this would be provided as capital funding. She said it was therefore difficult to use this money to cover staffing costs since it was intended to cover maintenance and digital infrastructure upgrades.  
     
48. The Minister confirmed that she had asked Medr to analyse how Welsh Government programmes for HE/FE were supporting public services and the concept of civic mission. She stressed the importance of equity in course provision and outlined the activity she was taking to ensure the current funding model was being used to maximum effect to promote occupational courses in the public sector. The Minister noted that Vice Chancellors were working hard to avoid compulsory redundancies and that lessons learnt would be identified from the current situation.
     
49. The Minister explained that Medr were looking at gaps in course provision throughout Wales to ensure staff could teach across institutions and continue to provide a diverse range of subjects to students. She recognised the importance of universities in delivering Wales’ Industrial Strategy and the role of HE/FE in both the national and regional economies. The Minister confirmed she would be meeting with business schools to help promote their work and build a sustainable approach to supporting the strategy.
     
50. The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership confirmed the SPC Secretariat would provide a first draft of a statement for the Council’s consideration highlighting the importance of social partnership in HE/FE.

Action: SPC Secretariat to provide a draft statement from the SPC on the importance of social partnership in the HE/FE sector for members consideration. Agreement would be needed by all members for it to be adopted. 

51. The Minister said there were seven on-going actions arising from previous meetings of the SPC and outlined these. He asked members if they were content to agree them.
     
52. Jess Turner felt the Employment Rights Bill could have been on the agenda for formal discussion rather than as a paper to note. This was supported by Shavanah Taj.
     
53. The Minister confirmed this would be placed on the next SPC agenda.

Action: The SPC Secretariat to ensure the Employment Rights Bill is on the next SPC agenda.

54. The Minister said it had been previously agreed that members would be provided with an opportunity to raise any Equality, Diversity and Inclusion (EDI) issues at SPC meetings that had not already been covered under other items. He asked members whether they had any issues to raise.
     
55. Shavanah said she did not have a specific EDI issue but raised concerns over recent announcements that the UK Government intended to reduce the size of the Civil Service. Whilst there had been guarantees of no compulsory redundancies, she stressed the risk of losing valuable people to this process.
     
56. Sian Boyles supported Shavanah’s comments on behalf of the PCS. 

57. The Minister reminded members that the next meeting of the SPC was on the 4 June and that it would be virtual. He explained that the Secretariat would be seeking views from members on preferred venues for the September meeting of the SPC.

Welsh Government

Eluned Morgan MS, Prif Weinidog
Jack Sargeant MS, Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership
Vikki Howells MS, Minister for Further and Higher Education
Charlie Thomas, Legislation Division
Zenny Saunders, Learner Experience Division
Jo Salway, Social Partnership and Fair Work
Glyn Jones, Chief Digital Officer
 

Worker representatives 

Ruth Brady, GMB
Neil Butler, NASUWT
Gareth Lloyd, UCU
Shavanah Taj, TUC Cymru  
Jess Turner, UNISON
Helen Whyley, RCN Wales
Peter Hughes, Unite
Sian Boyles, PCS

Employer representatives 

Pippa Britton, Voluntary Sector
Dame Elan Closs-Stephens, Public Bodies
Nicola Prygodzicz, Health
Kathryn Robson, Further Education
Janis Richards, Business
Ben Cottam, Business 
Prof. Wendy Larner, Higher Education
Russell Greenslade, Business

Guest speaker

James Owen, Chief Operating Officer, Medr