Social Partnership Council meeting, 30 September 2024: minutes
30 September 2024, 10:00am to 12:00pm, Caerdydd Meeting Room, Welsh Government Offices, Cathays Park, Cardiff (hybrid meeting).
This file may not be fully accessible.
In this page
Item 1: welcome/opening remarks
- The First Minister welcomed attendees to the fourth meeting of the Social Partnership Council (SPC). She introduced the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning and the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership and confirmed that she would leave the meeting after agenda item 3 with the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership chairing the remainder of the Council. She outlined the leads for each agenda item and confirmed that members had received one paper to note on socially responsible procurement.
Item 2: delivery, productivity, and accountability priorities budget
- The First Minister provided an overview of the public listening exercise conducted by the Welsh Government throughout the summer. She explained that this had provided an unfiltered view of what people saw as priorities for government. To support this, the First Minister explained the importance of understanding the SPC’s views on priorities for the Welsh Government’s budget for the remainder of the Senedd term. She emphasised her focus on delivery underpinned by the need to empower staff at all levels to release their untapped potential (pockets of brilliance) and challenge inefficiency to drive-up productivity.
- The First Minister emphasised the importance of everyone in the chain of accountability taking responsibility for their decisions to drive improvements. She explained that she had asked her Cabinet colleagues to produce individual delivery plans for their portfolios which they would be directly accountable for; they in turn would be holding public sector organisations to account for their part in their delivery. The First Minister outlined the difficult financial context, explaining that the tough decisions that had been taken in the past had allowed Wales to avoid some of the more drastic cuts being made in Scotland but that challenges remained.
- The First Minister confirmed the Chancellor would publish a single year budget on the 30 October and a comprehensive spending review would be produced in the spring. In the meantime, the Welsh Government would publish a draft budget on the 10 December and a final version on the 25 February. She explained that the settlement from the UK Government had not been finalised but would be challenging and that as a result the budgetary prioritisation exercise would be essential. The First Minister noted that typically organisations were good at prioritising but not deprioritising and stated that it was now particularly important for members to challenge this.
- Jess Turner (UNISON) said that in providing feedback people tended to focus primarily on the services they use producing a biased picture. Jess raised concerns about the language that had been used around productivity explaining this needed to be translated into a form that avoided misunderstandings that the workforce did not work hard enough and engaged them in how to work differently. Jess referenced the Workforce Partnership Council (WPC) report on artificial intelligence (AI) as an area of focus for the SPC explaining it provided a useful opportunity to use AI in an ethical way to improve efficiency.
- Councillor Anthony Hunt (WLGA) thanked the First Minister for the pay announcement and emphasised the importance of individuals in unlocking productivity. He explained that in Wales public services had developed a tradition of creating process driven outcomes as opposed to outcome driven processes; that this approach would need to change at a national and local level if productivity were to improve. He reiterated concerns that conversations about public services focussed on those that were most used to the detriment of more specialist areas. He emphasised calls made at other forums for health and social care to be considered together, decreasing the problems of dual systems, to develop better services.
- Ian Price (CBI) explained that the language regarding the economic climate was impacting investment in Wales. Whilst acknowledging budget pressures, Ian advised that a more positive narrative needed to be created, highlighting success stories such as the Development Bank of Wales, to counteract negative media reporting.
- Neil Butler (NASUWT) supported the idea that there were pockets of brilliance in the public sector but felt the current structure of the schools’ system, (underpinned by the Education Reform Act 1988) introduced a culture of competition within schools that undermined social partnership working. Neil felt this would need to be changed if schools were to be empowered to release the potential of their staff.
- Helen Whyley (RCN) asked the First Minister if she could provide more information on the Welsh Government’s October budget statement. Helen raised the importance of not overly focussing on NHS waiting times to the exclusion of unscheduled care, explaining that now might be an opportune time to revisit service prioritisation. She referenced the willingness of health unions to work in social partnership but stressed their disappointment at the Independent Pay Review Body’s recommendations relating to Agenda for Change staff in England; she explained a consultation exercise on this was on-going in Wales.
- Ben Cottam (FSB) stressed the need to consider efficiencies across both the private and public sectors. Ben explained there would be similar themes across both relating to processes, skills deployment and scaling the workforce. He emphasised the importance of using the draft budget to offer positive messaging to businesses and offered to work with officials on this. Ben referred to the continued impact of the Covid-19 pandemic, the pressures facing the foundational economy and the need for continued support through the Non-Domestic Rates relief system. He anticipated hearing more on government plans to grow the economy, including how social partnership could support this and the need to determine the priorities for the Shared Prosperity Fund.
- Darren Williams (PCS) reiterated earlier comments on the importance of organisations understanding the language of productivity and delivery. Darren highlighted the misconception that frontline workers were more important than backroom staff and stressed the significant cuts that had already been experienced by some public bodies. He said that further reductions would endanger their ability to maintain delivery.
- Gareth Lloyd (UCU) supported the social partnership approach but explained that it was often unclear who should act as the lead within further Education (FE). Gareth confirmed that the number of people accessing FE had increased but that this was not matched in the Higher Education (HE) sector. He highlighted the value in using social partnership to develop a joined-up approach in FE/HE to promote pathways within schools and welcomed any future statements by the Welsh Government on pay.
- Pippa Britton (Voluntary Sector) offered support for Councillor Hunt’s view that health and social care should be considered jointly and outlined the extent to which the voluntary sector supported both. Pippa also reiterated earlier concerns that the language around productivity and delivery needed to be meaningful to people throughout the sector.
- Nicola Prygodzicz (NHS Chief Executives) flagged the importance of current activity to reduce pressures within the NHS but also stressed the need to develop preventative measures for the future to avoid an even greater backlog occurring. Nicola talked about the need to adopt a flexible approach that included the use of agency workers to reduce pressures and improve staff morale. She warned against centralising discussions on delivery, emphasising the importance of empowering staff at all levels to develop solutions to the current problems.
- Wendy Larner (Higher Education) emphasised the importance of universities across Wales in delivering social mobility and economic growth. Wendy explained that universities were a significant source of innovative thinking and were one of Wales’s greatest assets in providing pockets of brilliance to answer current and future challenges.
- Shavanah Taj (TUC Cymru) suggested that given the complexity of the discussion, establishing an SPC sub-group to consider ways of improving delivery across sectors could be beneficial. Shavanah asked for more detail on the budget timetable feeling it would be useful to have further clarity over levels of consequential funding being provided to Wales so the impact on individual sectors could be better understood.
- Ian Price (CBI) explained that Wales had not been particularly effective at capturing best practice and promoting this across sectors. Ian suggested a piece of work could be done to capture best practice to improve future delivery.
- The First Minister thanked Ian Price for all his contributions to the SPC and other forums ahead of his imminent retirement.
- The First Minister explained that empowering people in the workplace was central to delivery and would increase both efficiency and job satisfaction. She acknowledged the cuts across different sectors but said inefficiencies remained in the system. The First Minister stressed the importance of needing a culture shift within public services to change the preoccupation with processes to the detriment of outcomes. She acknowledged the importance of considering the NHS and social care together, stressing the importance of unionising the latter’s workforce. The First Minister supported the need to develop more positive messaging to promote investment.
- The First Minister stressed the potential for social partnership to improve school performance but said there were no plans to reconsider the local management of schools as established by the Education Reform Act 1988. She referenced the relevance of previous work regarding de-prioritisation in the NHS and supported the reduction in agency nurse spend. The First Minister supported the need for clear language regarding delivery, the importance of influencing the industrial strategy being developed by the UK Government and the positive trend in young people accessing FE but the reverse situation with HE. She outlined some of the delays surrounding consequential funding from the UK Government but felt this would improve going forward.
- The First Minister acknowledged the value in the SPC exploring the idea of a sub-group to consider the language around productivity and efficiency.
Action: the SPC Secretariat to develop a proposal for an SPC sub-group to explore the language around productivity and efficiency.
Item 3: improving fair work through Welsh Government financial support
- The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning explained that at the SPC’s July meeting TUC Cymru made proposals for how the next phase of fair work policy could be developed through the use of Welsh Government financial support. The Cabinet Secretary said that this item was intended to agree a starting point for taking this forward. She explained there were two issues to consider: whether an SPC Working Group would be established, or if the matter should be considered through engagement channels in Economic Policy. And (if a Working Group were agreed) to decide the purpose of the group.
- The Cabinet Secretary outlined how the economic policy engagement channels in place could be used. As an alternative, she said that a sub-group might bring more formal structure and focus, establishing a foundation of experience to build into other sectors. The Cabinet Secretary said that elements of the TUC’s paper were the subject of an on-going evaluation of the Economic Contract. She explained that the interim report (including provisional recommendations) was almost complete and could be a good starting point for the sub-group.
- The Cabinet Secretary said that if a working group were agreed it was proposed that chairing and membership be managed outside of the meeting by the SPC Secretariat. She added that if the purpose, format and first steps were agreed then the terms of reference could be considered at an initial meeting of the working group.
- Pippa Britton (Voluntary Sector) said it was important to clarify whether the proposal was to establish a permanent sub-group or a task and finish group.
- Ben Cottam (FSB) acknowledged the good working relationships in place with economic policy officials and that it was sensible to utilise these. Ben said that the report being produced on the Economic Contract would be an important issue for any sub-group to consider.
- Ian Price (CBI) felt a sub-group was a better option, feeling it would allow expertise to be brought into discussions that might exist outside of the SPC. Ian supported the idea of the group considering the report on the Economic Contract.
- Darren Williams (PCS) said that the TUC’s paper had made a modest proposal and that it was now important to progress this issue at pace. He stressed the need to agree the two principles in the paper and that if a group was to be established then it needed to be on a task and finish basis.
- Shavanah Taj (TUC Cymru) explained that the focus of the group should not just be on the Economic Contract but on driving improvements in fair work e.g. in social care, using a One Welsh Public Service approach across all sectors.
- Councillor Anthony Hunt (WLGA) supported establishing a sub-group but emphasised it operating at pace with a focus on outcomes. Councillor Hunt stressed the importance of engaging all sectors in its discussions to ensure fair work was properly considered.
- The Cabinet Secretary acknowledged the support for establishing a sub-group on a task and finish basis. She referenced the emphasis members had placed on developing work at pace and the need to draw in relevant expertise to inform discussions. She referred to the complex landscape in this area and that following discussions at this meeting she would carefully consider the language used in her statement on priorities to the Senedd.
Action: the SPC Secretariat to establish a task and finish group to consider the Economic Contract in consultation with members.
(A ten-minute interval followed this item and the First Minister left the meeting)
Item 4: cycle of Social Partnership Council (SPC) meetings
- The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership explained that members were being asked to agree a cycle of four meetings for 2025. The Minister apologised for the number of changes that had been made to meetings throughout the year and said there would be more stability in 2025. He proposed two in-person meetings for 2025, suggesting that only one should be held in Cardiff.
- Darren Williams (PCS) supported the proposed approach but felt another meeting should be held in 2024 due to the number of issues that needed to be discussed.
- Councillor Anthony Hunt (WLGA) supported the proposal but suggested all four meetings could be hybrid.
- The Minister said that feedback from his own discussions with members suggested that a mix of in-person and hybrid meetings better suited peoples’ requirements.
- Jess Turner (UNISON) reflected that in-person meetings would allow the trade unions to engage and network more effectively with social partners.
- Pippa Britton (Voluntary Sector) felt that any meetings of the sub-groups of the SPC should be a mix of in-person and virtual.
- Ben Cottam (FSB) supported the usefulness of in person meetings as a method of engagement with other social partners.
- The Minister confirmed another meeting of the SPC would be arranged for 2024. Due to the timescale involved this would be virtual but some of the meetings of the SPC in 2025 would be arranged as in-person.
Action: the SPC Secretariat to arrange a further meeting of the Council in 2024.
Item 5: approach to equality, diversity and inclusion issues
- The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership explained that members were being asked to agree the 3-stage approach outlined in the paper for this item to ensure the SPC embedded equality, diversity and inclusion (EDI) considerations into its advice. The Minister said the paper proposed a blended approach as recommended by members at the last meeting and outlined the 3 stages. He explained that if members agreed the paper then its proposals would be built into the operating arrangements for the next SPC meeting with a review of the approach taking place in 12 months’ time.
- Darren Williams (PCS) offered broad support for the paper but recommended that the SPC have a standing sub-group to consider EDI issues.
- Kathryn Robson (Further Education) supported the paper but explained that the SPC was not sufficiently diverse. Kathryn emphasised the importance of ensuring lived experience was represented in discussions at the SPC and the importance of bringing in expert advice as necessary.
- Helen Whyley (RCN) supported the approach outlined in the paper but suggested that the word equality should be replaced with equity to better capture the diverse needs of different groups.
- Pippa Britton (Voluntary Sector) agreed with the use of the word equity going forward feeling it would be more effective in challenging existing barriers. Pippa warned against the dangers of creating a tick box approach to EDI and highlighted the need to consider people with different needs beyond some of the categories that were more typically covered.
- Shavanah Taj (TUC Cymru) supported the comments made by Pippa Britton. Shavanah emphasised the number of equalities action plans and forums already in existence and the need to ensure that any SPC sub-group did not duplicate work.
- The Minister asked the SPC if they were content to change equality to equity in the work of the Council going forward. This was accepted.
- Shavanah Taj (TUC Cymru) supported the change but explained that many Welsh Government plans already contained equality, raising concerns over consistency.
- The Minister confirmed that the SPC Secretariat would work with members in establishing a chair and membership for a standing EDI sub-group which could be operationalised as required.
Action: the SPC Secretariat to engage with members in establishing a chair and membership for a standing Equity, Diversity and Inclusion sub-group that could be operationalised as required.
Item 6: approval of SPC procedures
- The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership stated that the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act required Welsh Ministers to specify and publish the quorum for SPC meetings, and the procedures to be followed by the Council. The Minister reminded members that they had considered the procedures at their first meeting of the SPC and sought further clarity on how the non-attendance of members (including the removal process) would now be handled. He explained that an attendance and conduct policy had been developed which reflected earlier comments from members (Annex A in the procedures document). The Minister asked members if they were content to agree the procedures.
- Shavanah Taj (TUC Cymru) confirmed that the trade unions had submitted some technical comments on the procedures ahead of this meeting. To save time, Shavanah suggested the procedures could be agreed in principle subject to final agreement to the text by email outside of the meeting.
- Darren Willaims (PCS) said that the procedures needed to be clarified but given that the comments by the trade unions were quite detailed he supported the view that they could be considered outside of the meeting.
- Nicola Prygodzicz (NHS Chief Executives) confirmed that she had raised issues regarding confidentiality previously but that these had been covered off. Regarding attendance, Nicola explained that she would sometimes need another NHS chief executive to observe for her due to work pressures but was content to agree the procedures.
- Kathryn Robson (Further Education) felt there had been sufficient time to consider the procedures and that they should now be signed off.
- Darren Williams (PCS) reiterated that some of the comments provided by the trade unions still needed to be considered.
- The Minister said that the procedures had been agreed in principle whilst accepting there were a few details to resolve. He stressed that he did not want to delay their clearance any further and was content for them to be finalised by email.
Action: SPC Secretariat to submit revised procedures for agreement by members by 14 October.
Item 7: minutes/actions arising
- The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership explained there were four outstanding actions from previous meetings of the Council and listed them. The Minister asked members if they were content to agree these.
- Jess Turner (UNISON) asked if the WPC’s report on AI was on course to be presented to the SPC shortly.
- Sharon West (Welsh Government) explained that the WPC was aiming to sign-off the report at its next meeting on the 13 November but that if this was not possible an interim report could be agreed for sharing with the SPC.
- The Minister confirmed the WPC’s delivery sub-group the Joint Executive Committee was conscious of the need to finalise the report.
Item 8: closing comments
- The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership thanked members for their views and asked if there were any other issues they wished to raise.
- Jess Turner (UNISON) thanked Darren Williams (PCS) for his contributions at the SPC explaining this would be his last meeting following a change in role.
- The Minister put on record his gratitude to both Darren Williams and Ian Price. He reiterated the importance of working in social partnership, the status the Cabinet placed on the SPC and confirmed officials would take forward the actions that had been agreed with members.
Social Partnership Council (SPC) attendance: 30 September 2024
Welsh Government
Eluned Morgan MS, First Minister (Chair)
Jack Sargeant MS, Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership (Co-Chair)
Rebecca Evans, Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning (Item 3)
Jo Salway, Director, Social Partnership, Employability and Fair Work
Andrew Jeffreys, Director, Welsh Treasury
Emma Watkins, Deputy Director, Budget and Government Business
Sharon West, Social Partnership Reform
Chris Hartwell, Head of Policy, Social Value and Inter-Governmental Relations
Worker representatives
Neil Butler, National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers (Virtual)
Gareth Lloyd, University and College Union
Shavanah Taj, TUC Cymru
Jess Turner, UNISON
Darren Williams, Public and Commercial Services Union
Mike Walker, Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers
Helen Whyley, Royal College of Nursing in Wales
Peter Hughes, Unite the Union in Wales (Virtual)
Employer representatives
Pippa Britton, Third Sector
Councillor Anthony Hunt, Welsh Local Government Association
Ian Price, Confederation of British Industry Wales
Nicola Prygodzicz, NHS Chief Executives (Virtual)
Kathryn Robson, Adult Learning Wales
Ben Cottam, Federation of Small Businesses
Prof. Wendy Larner, Cardiff University
Janis Richards, Make UK Ltd
SPC Secretariat
Zoe Holland, Welsh Government
Mark Lewis, Welsh Government
Gerwyn David, Welsh Government
Gavin Jenkins, Welsh Government
Apologies
Ruth Brady, GMB
Dame Elan Closs-Stephens, Public Leaders Forum